Joe Strummer

CLASH CITY ROCKER

“My days ? I stay in West London. Don’t know North, South, East London. I go down the boozer at lunchtime, have a cider, low alcohol. No stiff drinks. Then I might go and stand by the paper-stand and talk to Pete. Then I might go to a couple of coffeehouses on the Grove (Ladbroke Grove) where I know people sitting around talking, see who’s doing what – lots of painters, writers, musicians. Then come evening time, properly go back to the boozer, chat to a few people, drink Brown Ale, then call it a day. I like to move around, talking, get out of the house. I can’t stand television, not interested. Get out of the house…”
This was Joe Strummer’s life when we met. The Clash was over and – unlike now – not massively in vogue. Relations with himself and Mick Jones, as you will read, were ‘strained’ to say the least – verging somewhere between wounded separation and flaring into open resentment. In the days before The Mescaleros and other occasional collaborations fired his enthusiasm again, Strummer was so disillusioned with the music business it was even dimming passion for music.
He talked like a champion though – about his hugely under-rated soundtrack for Alex Cox, Walker, which had just been released, and, of course, the old days with The Clash. His claim that he didn’t know anywhere in London apart from Ladbroke Grove/Notting Hill was not the only surprising one to someone like me who had grown up worshipping what he did in The Clash so much I named my son after him.
We met in a pub on Ladbroke Grove. He was smaller than I expected, wiry, almost thin. His hair was black, slicked back and had long sideburns. A heavy leather jacket, white patterned shirt, black jeans and pointed cowboy boots. He smokes incessantly, drinking coffee to fuel the talking. His pattern of speech – like a laidback snarl – made everything cool. With his talk of “leaving the ciddy”, his persona was that of some sort of rock ‘n’ roll outlaw. And that’s probably what he was.

YOU MUST HAVE BEEN ASKED EVERY QUESTION A MAN CAN BE ASKED.
“Perhaps… For something like ‘Walker’, there’s no other way to promote it. It won’t go on the radio the record company won’t buy adverts for it.”

YOU MUST GET A LOT OF YOUNG HACKS IN AWE.
“No, not really ! (laughs) I once read an interview with Craig Stadtler (the American golfer). It was a terrific interview, two pages. Every question – about 50 of them – every single one, he answered with ‘No not, really’ ! I was always really impressed by that. He obviously didn’t realise ! I wish I could do that !”

I WAS AT THE CLASH’S GIG AT CRAWLEY SPORTS CENTRE WHEN I WAS 12.
“Jesus, what a gig. I’ll never forget that. We all grow up. It’s difficult. I’d prefer to talk to somebody who hates you. It upsets me the term “Clash expert”. Anything I do for the rest of my life will be given to Charles Shaar Murray at Q magazine. I’m like, ‘it’s not my fault your fucking rhythm and blues band didn’t work out !’ I like a bash-up. He reviewed The Clash compilation and ‘Walker’. I’m interested to meet people who don’t know or don’t care.”

ARE INTERVIEWS USEFUL OR INTERESTING IN ANY WAY ? DO YOU LEARN ANYTHING ?
“I tell you what the main effect is: I think to myself, ‘I never ever want to do another interview again.’ It’s stressful. I suppose there are some times it’s interesting. I try and pay no attention. I look at them through one eye, out the corner; it’s too false, I change my mind every week too.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT THE CLASH ALWAYS SEEMED OBSESSED WITH THE PRESS.
“I’m given the chance to say something. You’re aware that you’re saying the wrong thing. Next day you realise how you should have done it, like an actor in rehearsal. It’s my only avenue of drawing attention to my work. I’d love to shut up for a while. I really just want to be normal. I want to walk forward in life like everyone else.”

The record Strummer was promoting, Walker, was a revelation – full of Spanish dances, tangos, 50s film themes, spaghetti western trumpet blasts and classic Mexican ballads. Alex Cox’s film deals with the true story William Walker, an American doctor, lawyer and journalist who with the backing of American businessmen organised a small mercenary army and occupied Nicaragua in 1855 making himself president. He then loses all his liberal values and becomes a megalomaniac. The (deliberate) parallel with Ronald Reagan contributed to it opening and closing in the States in one week. Strummer was on the set playing a minor role when Cox asked him to do the music.
He assembled a band of local (mostly Mexican musicians) and recorded the songs he’d written in Nicaragua in two weeks.
“I always say that Alex Cox is like The Clash because, win or lose, good or bad, he’s going against the grain. It’s not just for the cash. It was a difficult film to make and I didn’t particularly enjoy it. I love the country though, the people. I would never have written it without the film. It was made for the film very specifically. There’s nothing modern on it at all. I wrote it all on a cheap Cassio. The musicians were so great to pick it up. Anything that isn’t guitar-based, I’m useless. I hardly understand anything. In fact, I can hardly play an instrument and I can’t really play at all.”
Where did you find them ?
“The musicians were quite old, they all had Latin bands. Some did jingles for Taco-Bell. They were always rushing off to do Taco-Bell adverts. Some kind of sick fast food chain. I kept catching the engineer mixing taco-bell jingles and then switching on to my stuff. They all rushing into next studio; you listen and hear (SINGS JAMES BOND STYLE THEM): “DON’T TRY TO HIDE IT !”
You think that sounds pretty good. “YOU’VE GOT TO SLIP AWAY…. WHEN IT COMES TO LUNCHTIME, IT’S TACOBELL ALL THE WAY”: they get the best players, pick up the tune in seconds. It was fun.”

IS THE RECORD COMPANY NOT BACKING IT ?
“It’s not that big a deal for Virgin, it’s a one-off thing. Why should they bother ? There’s no long-term investment in me. We’re considering ‘Immortal’ as a single. It’s as bad as CBS – it’s really difficult to find anyone who’s in charge… Probably better than CBS. It’s not even worth going in the front door as far as I’m concerned. I’ve got to do 3 more albums with CBS” – a result of The Clash’s legendarily awful contract.

YOU COULD MAKE A SANDINISTA AND END IT.
“When we released Sandinista, in order to have a triple album sell for the price of one, we made two concessions. 1) that it counted as one LP in our deal. 2) we got no record royalties, we got song writing royalties. PRS. Record royalties, we got zip, 12/14% of the sale cost we waived that, in order to get it out.”
A BIT RASH !
“Well. We were like that. We didn’t care. We were into the music. Nobody got any money out of that – not us, not the Sandinistas, only CBS. It didn’t sell two copies.”
WHAT IS YOUR CBS/EPIC DEAL ?
“I want to re-negotiate. I don’t want any interference, I won’t record until I’ve had that because the tapes just become a pawn in a game, you know ? I wanna get the rules of the game straight first because I don’t want some fucker getting hold of my music. I’d rather not have a single ever again than have that”
He snarls, disgruntled.

WALKER IS A BRILLIANT RECORD I SAY TRYING TO GET HIS MOOD BACK.
“Coney Island Magazine said Latin parties are all playin’ it. It’s sold one and a half copies. 15,000 in the US – in nation of 400 million. I’m not moaning. It’s good to know there are 15,000 people there who are awake; it’s bribery and corruption (meaning radio). NYC has got millions of stations, here it’s dead. Pirate stations are cool here.”
“You do something like Walker – the session’s over, you leave the city, you finish up. A few weeks later, I always get worried. I wonder how did I do that? You’re never secure.”
BEFORE WALKER YOU DID A SOUNDTRACK FOR PERMANENT RECORD
“Doing ‘Permanent Record’ in Hollywood, I got quite bolshy; the admen are ripping off the music, I tried to start fights – gonna form an organisation and paint slogans on all the studios in the world: JINGLE MAKERS FUCK OFF (snarls). These guys loved my session. Oh man, I didn’t tell them what to play, I said, ‘go your way, cool double bass player, that’s the chords, GO MAN GO pull out the best shot, the heavy licks that you can’t play, nothing medium. Let it rip. Rebecca on the piano in ‘Filibustero’, it’s all hot. Real Latin style, rocked it up. I’m screaming GO MAN GO.”
“‘Permanent Record’ is strictly rock, rock with kind of Latin percussion. Used a double bass player, didn’t want it too boring. It’s ok. What I can do on the guitar but it’s not particularly world-gripping you know ? Stop it getting too boring; mix it up. One came out sounding like the Buzzcocks, I was so pleased. ‘Fuck me, it’s The Buzzcocks, a real blast.
‘Trash City’ to me, it’s like not bad. I sing on about 6 – they’ve put other people on the record – I had 16 cuts, they’ve used only 5 with vocals. Lou Reed, The Godfathers, Stranglers, Bodeans, I’ve got another 10 cuts.”
I did ‘Permanent Record’ after The Pogues’ tour. After the ballads, I had to do a really bum deal cos CBS got in on it. To be allowed to sing on it, they really stuck a real hot red-hot poker up my bum. The deal is (laughing) after 100, 000 copies, I get a quid. At the end of the 21st century. It’s not ‘Dirty Dancing.”

WHAT HAVE ELSE HAVE YOU DONE SINCE CUT THE CRAP ?
“That was ‘85. 3 years. You know those large dustbins, catering bins. Songwriting – I visualise like that, fill to the brim of murky water. Songs sort of circle, you have to stir it up things come up. You can reach down and grab something but if you don’t, it’s still circling round in there. So I didn’t mind not doing much. Elvis Costello or someone is obsessed with writing writing writing. Sometimes I don’t write a song for months and then sit down and bash out loads. The longer you leave them in the dustbin in fact, the more interesting branches they grow.”
‘BROADWAY’ & THE CLASH FILM ‘RUDE BOY’ HAVE SONGS BASED ON PIANO THAT ARE ALMOST JAZZ OR BLUES. COULD THAT BE YOUR FUTURE CIRECTION
“Broadway’s a really great track. Death is the Star – that’s a weird one too yeah. I had no real self confidence. Mick, Paul and Topper did the backing, I did the lyrics. ‘Death’ was me and Mick – the music. With my musical ability, when you had good players around, I sat in the background. I thought if I let him into Walker, I’d lose it, I knew for myself I had something to write and it might come out ok. When I’m around Mick, I tend to take a backseat – it’s my nature. I’m aware I’ve got no technique or schooling. That’s why I keep myself to myself. I don’t have any confidence. If I’m on my own, I have to do it. If I’m worried that if I get a group, I’ll let people walk all over me, that’s what worries me. I was thrown out of music class, I was thrown out of the choir, I never picked up a guitar until I was 21. I can’t play lead guitar. Mick is a really cracker musician.”

I FIND B.A.D REALLY DISAPPOINTING MUSICALLY
I surprised myself with ‘Walker’. Every single Clash track was really arranged by Mick – arranged and produced by Mick Jones. He’s great musician.”

SO YOU WERE IN HIS SHADOW.
After The Clash was over and we’d made up, I did the second B.A.D LP, we argued a lot. It was frustrating for me cos I had to say, ‘well it’s YOUR group’. If we’d been in a group I could have shouted louder – I wanted Kay to play real drums on it was what it boiled down to… I wanted to investigate the hip-hop potential of real drum kit.
We did a song called ‘US North’ for a film called ‘Candy Mountain’. Robert Frank did a prize –winning book of photos in the 50s, a Kerouac man, foreword of Kerouac’s. He directed ‘Cocksucker Blues’. Frank was directing. I’ve never actually seen it although I am in it. I’m a security guard on crack. Duffing up the hero at the start. We got together to write, we had this song ‘US North’. It was funded by Canadian money – the last thing we should have done was call it ‘US North’. Recording it, it was all Mick’s pals. I was at the back of the room more and more my only contribution apart from helping a bit and writing the lyrics was singing underneath Mick’s vocal. I realised: ‘hang on, this was MY PROJECT. It was my brief !’ At the end I’m under the backing vocals. I’m not criticising Mick cos he came forward with a brilliant tune (sings: ‘well it’s a long way back/to your laundermat/Got no protection from the city block code’). He sings cracker – B.A.D. picked it up I really had no answer to Mick’s powerful personality so with Walker I said to myself, ‘right, you cunt let’s see if you can hack it’ without Mick. Do or die.’ It was a confidence booster cos it meant I did have something musical in me. I could be an English Tom Waits figure. I don’t know what happened to the soundtrack.”

THE CLASH’S GREATEST HIT COMPILATION HAS COME OUT.
“It’s called Volume One’ – which it’s my idea of a joke. To wind up the hacks. ‘Double Album, Volume One’. Who do these cunts fucking think they are ?! You never know, I don’t think there’ll be more. It had to come. I was quite into it. We got some control over it, mainly cos Rob Steiner was a Clash fan, he and Mick put running order. I checked it. My mind wasn’t on it. The old team, I don’t like the front (pic) one. Can’t stand it. We stopped the bus on that tour a lot. “HAT SHOP !” On a rock ‘n’ roll tour, everybody buys hats.”
POSING…
“All the time. Pennie Smith took snaps, quietly, some posed. We weren’t dressing up cos we were dressing up all the time. I like all that, all this..” (indicates his gear)

YOU LOOK COOL
“Yeah thanks. One time… laughs… god help us. On The Who tour because The Who were big we thought we need something to make us feel better so we used to hire Rent-a-wrecks – 50s Cadillac convertibles. They’re kept for films. So we’d arrive in the gig to give us a buzz. One time a driver from the motorpool looked at us in the rear-view mirror, and said ‘Great disguises guys’. We weren’t in disguise ! Mick was all hip-hopped up, he was sincere. I looked at him, and us and thought ‘what have we come to ?’ After that it used to be ‘why are you wearing those stupid glasses ?’ We were falling apart then. We couldn’t even agree what’s cool anymore.”

THE CLASH HAVE GOT TO ANSWER FOR…
‘Spin’ Magazine in the US, ages ago before the compilation and 2 essays, 5 page spread, slagging us to fuck. Why not blame Les Paul for inventing the guitar?
I like the rock ‘n’ punk aspect, that funk aspect.”

IF YOU COULD SAVE JUST THREE CLASH SONGS FROM DELETION WHICH WOULD THEY BE ?
“The first album and London Calling. (Considerably more than three songs but still…) The first was the first blast and then London Calling was us moving forward musically bettering ourselves – using what we learned.
I have no enthusiasm for ‘Give ‘em Enough Rope’ and ‘Sandinista’ is too sprawling. I like the first side of Combat Rock but no affection for the ‘Atom Tan’ style stuff. I like ‘Sean Flynn’.”
THE WORST MOMENTS ?
Of the whole shebang? For me it’s ‘Cut The Crap’. Cut The Crap just didn’t work, it was a very big fuck up. It took me a long time to get over it. Of the original, proper Clash, ‘Give Em Enough Rope’ is ok. No fond memories. I remember being so young and stupid at that time. Sandy Perlman & Corky Staziak came in from the US of A to produce it. One night in the studios we were all in the control room and Sandy went, ‘I know! I’VE GOT IT’ ! And I thought, ‘wow I’m privileged to be here at this moment of rock n roll breakthrough’. Then he turned to Korky Staziak and he went ‘We eat Thai tonight’ and my heart sank.

YOU AND MICK HAD SOME BAD FIGHTS ?
“We were up north, the Glasgow Mecca, we were fighting and the gorillas (the bouncers) were saying ‘We know who to thump when the audience fights, but who do we thump now?’ We’d done a raging set and stormed off, the audience were all shouting for more. I said ‘right, let’s do White Riot, come on !’ And Mick says ‘No I refuse.’ I said ‘come on where’s your respect ?’ Mick said ‘you haven’t got any respect for the stage’ and threw his orange juice on me. As he threw it, I planted one right on me, my fist square on his forehead, and knocked him right over and won the argument, we played it. He stayed in his room that night, did quite a good drawing of himself in the mirror, actually showed it to me the next day and when he came out he had a scarf round his head and I said ‘what are you wearing that for?’ and he said ‘come here’ and took it off, and there was like a photographic imprint of four fingers from the knuckle to the first joint on his forehead. The bouncers were really confused.”

AND TOPPER LEAVING ?
“In ‘83 about May, we got rid of Topper after Combat Rock. Combat Rock was Christmas, New Year 82/83 we played in Australia and Thailand and Hong Kong, Japan, came back did some festivals, then got rid of him. That’s really when it all ended. I told him. The others were too fucking chicken.”

DID YOU EVER TAKE HEROIN ?
“I never took heroin nah. One time when I was on a busking tour of Holland in ‘72, about 72 spring, me and Tymon Dogg were busking our way through Belgium and France, not a penny between us. Some Dutch people took us in. We were smoking some joint, this wild guy said ‘the next one has heroin in it’ and it went round, I thought ‘Fuck me, I don’t want to get involved on this’… I did a pretend puff and passed it on. That’s the only time I’ve ever got into physical bodily contact with it. I was offered it hundreds of times. There are musicians, which I shan’t name… you go round to see them and it’s ‘hi man, how ya doin’. They sort of nod off, you know. I’m thinking ‘this is a bit awkward, he’s gone to sleep. He’s obviously tired maybe I’ll go !’ And then he’ll shake himself into life. With junk, you nod off and nod out. I’ll get up to go and he wakes up, ‘where you going ?’
Junkies always try and force their gear on other people. He offered me it. I’d heard that if you had a snort, you had to go and throw up immediately and I thought, ‘first you’ve got to throw up and then you just sit there and nod off, I’ve got things to do !’
We liked speed. Take some blues and go down the West End, jumping and screaming. Topper always liked to do Charlie. I didn’t think too much about that; we were always smoking dope, so how could we complain ? And he liked Mandrax. We had no moral grounds. Nowadays we know what an insidious, addictive drug cocaine is. But this is 8 years ago. Then he started to speedball it: mix it, I’d think he’s off in the corner having a hint of Charles but he’d start to substitute the powder. He told me gleefully, ‘I’ve been doing it for 18 months.’ What did we know about it? Now it’s everywhere. He’s in prison, so I expect he’s got a lot to think about.”

IT WAS IRONIC YOU JUST RELEASING ‘I FOUGHT THE LAW’
“Mmmmh imagine, ‘And the law won’. Thanks guys. All the other prisoners. He can handle it.

ANY OTHER BEST MOMENTS ?
May 7th 1977 at The Rainbow. A night where you’re at the right place at the right time doing the right thing, saying the right words, almost without effort, all the seats get demolished. Chance, luck, the effect was magic. I can remember that sort of high point. I could never write a book about it. As a fan you need to know the dirt. I always try and tell the truth. I feel bad about Topper being in prison and can’t defend himself. But if someone asks me ‘why did you sack him ?’ I say: ‘Cos he was on junk.’ I can’t say he was late, he was no good. Mick hasn’t done any interviews for the compilation. You’ve got to tell young people where you fuck up. In the 60’s it was all, dope’s cool. Now I’ve stopped smoking marijuana cos I know it’s very addictive and it’s linked to the gangsters who are selling crack. It’s no longer a groovy counter-culture thing to do. It’s playing in the hands of the state. I’m trying to keep a grip on drinking. I smoke cigarette, dink lot of black coffee. Dope’s an apathy drug, God knows I’ve wasted my life on that. In the Village Voice, they have marijuana/pot smokers anonymous. It’s heavy weed.

THE CLASH TOURED WITH A LOT OF GREAT PEOPLE
“Bo Diddley was wild. And Lee Dorsey. Great people. Screaming Jay Hanwkins. He still tours…. I met Jagger and I asked him ‘How do you play these big stadiums ?” cos to me there was no concentration on The Who tour, no-where to look. He said ‘Well you just don’t give a fuck about them.’ I went ‘oh. There’s no answer to that’. I always wanted to work with Quincy Jones but I never will.”

DO YOU FEEL YOU’RE GOING AGAINST THE TIDE, REVERTING TO YOUR OLD FASHIONED WAYS ?
“I refuse to work with a Fairlight, the Fairlight shows the waveform of the sound of the screen. You can analyse it; but I’m not interested. I can fucking hear it in my ear; to me, the art of recording is to hear a sound that affects the soul – this scientific stuff, analyse it, is a safety net. I prefer no safety net. It’s no fun. I’d like to record with The Pogues. I knew Shane since 76. He was at every gig. I’ll never forget that night. The skinheads were just intense. They were cool people, they wanna talk. In Luton too. Some idiot sold super-strength Skol lager in cans. Jesus never seen so many cans. In Luton. The British are an island nation and they’re really good at fighting, that’s just the way it is. Without a war, there’s a lot of energy there unharnessed. It’s an adolescent trip to prove you’re a man, only direct way with peer pressure is violence, ruck. It was like that in the ted-punk days. We were talking me and this headcase. I said ‘why beat the shit out that punks ?’ he said ‘We get noticed’. It’s a bad energy.”

WHAT ARE YOU WORKING TOWARDS JOE ?
“I might go on the road with a group. Just play what I know how to play. I don’t expect to find that many good movies. Not interested in a crap film. Not going to bash out soundtracks just for the sake of it. No definitely no acting, forget it. It’s just too weird. People like Tom Waits can handle cameos, but an actor’s really weird. Ed Harris really BECAME ‘Walker’; then I heard he was in Poland as a polish priest. He does it. To be an actor is a WEIRD thing. I think Adam Ant might do quite well – he’s doing auditions, readings, not using his name. Your average rock n roller doesn’t know what to do with it.”

Strummer has two daughters, one of whom (Jazzi) is best friends with Jones’ daughter Lauren, and he sees Mick and Paul as much as ever. He has been with Gabrielle 10 years but can’t marry because of a charitable act 14 years ago when he married a complete stranger so she could get immigration status and now he hasn’t a clue where she is to divorce her.

The son of a career diplomat, Strummer was born in Turkey, lived in Cairo, Mexico, Bonn, Amsterdam and still likes to travel.

YOU LIKE TRAVELLING RIGHT ?
“The South of Spain is probably my favourite. In the USA, the desert – Texas, Arizona. London’s my home though, whatever it is. It’s a melting pot. We’re on the top of something here, even though it’s in decline, the rubbish on the street, the morale of the people is at an all-time low. I feel wherever we’re going we’ll be the first to get there. I like to hang round the markets – they’re the life and soul of the city (‘ciddy’).”
Whereever we’re going, we’ll be the first to get there. One thing about London, guy from Glasgow was telling me, he was always getting beaten up cos he had hair like Fergal Sharkey. I realised in London, nobody bats a fucking eyelid. Dress like what the hell you like. Happens a bit but not as a matter of course. Unless you have hair like Fergal Sharkey.”

SO WHERE ARE YOU FAVOURITE PLACES ?
The markets are the life and soul of the city (“ciddy”) – Portobello runs the whole gamut, from poncey snobby rubbish to vegetables, throw things, carrot at your head, craftsmen selling their wares then the junk stuff, rubbish.

DO YOU EVER WRITE ?
“No, I only ever write lyrics. Maybe 5 years after I write my last lyric. I want to make a Strummer album but I ain’t going to record anything while they’re fucking me around, after 10 years.”

WALKER’S AN ACE IN THE SLEEVE, I SUGGEST HOPEFULLY BUT FORLORNLY – TO ENCOURAGE HIM.
“They couldn’t give a fuck, I bet no one at CBS has even listened to it.”
His jacket makes a noise. He pulls out something that looks like a cross between a clock and a pager.
“I carry this absurd thing, I haven’t heard it making it’s stupid beeping noise. I wonder if I’ve lost it. It’s London, summer time, 6.27. So I know what time it is.”
We depart into the nightlife of Harrow Road and I wait at the bus stop and watch him walk down the grey street, collar up against the cold London wind: the man who measures the pulse of the city.

ends